Talking To Paul Reid
About Holiness, Church Planting and Belfast
Paul Reid is the leader of the Lifelink team, a group of churches in Ireland committed to church planting and resourcing other churches. He is also senior pastor of the Christian Fellowship church in Belfast.
He travels extensively and has a vision to see the nations reached in his lifetime. Paul is committed to reconciliation in his own country and is firmly committed to the principle of all
believers which he sees as essential if we are going to reach the world effectively.
In this interview he talks to Noel Stanton, senior pastor of the Jesus Fellowship.
NOEL: We interviewed you three years ago. You're still Senior Pastor of Christian Fellowship Church, Belfast?
Paul: Yes! I'm firmly committed to building the church in Ireland. When I left the Brethren all those years ago, I didn't really know much about anything but I was passionate about the gospel and that was the key. We tried to do something different. I've been shaping rather than polishing ever since!
Noel: Churches can easily lose their focus.
Paul: Right. I fear there's a lack of passion around - there's no mission, there's nothing for the lost. But people are getting to that stage again where they are fed up with middle class Christianity and will either just quit, or say, "Let's do something radical!"
Noel: Do you see yourself at Christian Fellowship Church for life?
Paul: Yes, I do. I felt the Lord say "I want you to build an apostolic centre and reach the nation."
Noel: Churches need apostolic building and direction.
Paul: That's right. I don't want to give my life to something that isn't going to last. It's about putting values in place and making sure that they stay. It's very easy for folks to slip.
Noel: You've never felt a failure or inadequate?
Paul: While I was in Brazil last year, I caught dengue fever. I was physically ill for about a month but the tropical medicine experts warned me that the main side effect of it would be depression and at the beginning of last summer I went into it. I'd never been depressed so I didn't know what depression was - the only way I could explain it was lack of motivation and a lack of confidence which I'd never really had. I found it difficult to make decisions. It did help me see the strength of the team who were able to come alongside and be with me. It took almost ten months to come out of that and it was a tough time. We had a week of prayer and fasting at the beginning of this year and that really catapulted me out of it. In 2 Corinthians 1 Paul despaired even of life itself. He obviously went through his tough times, too.
Noel: Right! We expect to have it easy!
Paul: Oh, I agree. We did a workshop yesterday and one of the guys said let's talk about what holiness is and have a look at what Jesus particularly spoke against. And he said the first thing Jesus spoke against was comfort and ease in this life. One of the things we spend most of our time doing is getting financial security for ourselves and trying to put a barrier between ourselves and the pain of ordinary people. So that's got to come into the issue of what holiness is today.
Noel: Yes, one of the themes I've been ministering on recently has been finding our survival and security within the church. That's not a message that people easily receive.
Paul: That's because you naturally go to your blood relatives. The security you get is from the money you have - it's easy to fall into that trap.
Noel: We need to bring back the emphasis on self denial and sacrifice and the crucified lifestyle.
Paul: Absolutely. We often try to present the gospel as an easy option but people need to know some eternal realities.
Noel: Are you accountable?
Paul: Yes I am. I don't take any engagements on unless I run it past two of the team. There's a difficulty if you're apostolic, as the natural inclination of pastors is to say stay at home. You have to get people who understand what you're trying to do! So I'm accountable with my diary with one group and on a personal basis with another group.
Noel: How has the Christian Fellowship Church developed recently?
Paul: Over the last three years we have felt God speak to us about being an apostolic church with a mission. We've always had a mission emphasis but we felt the Lord say that we needed to help people get exposure to mission in this country and overseas. So we began to redefine our mission policy so that rather than just praying for people who are going overseas, we want to build overseas. We felt God telling us to concentrate on Europe, the 10/40 Window, and the poor.
So we're now channelling our resources into those areas. This year we had a target of sending out 150 people on short term mission all over the world. We took 70 to Strasbourg, and we took other teams to the Philippines, Malawi and Outer Mongolia.
Being involved with India and Africa made us increasingly disenchanted with "hit and run" evangelism. Honestly, it just didn't work, so we've said let's build with people who are going to stay and who are going to give their lives to building church. That's been a complete change for us. Back here, there's been a fantastic re-emphasis on church planting. We're involved with a new church planting in Dungannon which is about 40 miles from where we are. We've got much more financial resource so we're able to do that. Directing and controlling the finances is all-important!
Noel: And you're getting stronger in Belfast?
Paul: Yes we are. It's been an interesting time. Many young people here are looking for a challenge - something to live and die for. They see that the Lord is the only one to do that for, and they're not as interested in financial security as our generation.
Noel: We find that too. It's quite exciting.
Paul: I find it very challenging. Recently, I preached a message on Abraham, about investing in eternal things. Afterwards, a young person came up to me and said that they'd decided not to go to university and instead go on a mission. I found myself then saying: "Now hang on, you need to be sensible!" And then I had to catch myself about what I was just preaching! My concern is that we have sold them a western dream and not a biblical dream.
Noel: Yes. And how are your cell groups doing?
Paul: They're doing well. The whole idea of the church as a relational community has been increasing. We did a count one Sunday and there were 70 people who had come to the Lord through Alpha courses in the last couple of years, which is encouraging.
Another thing we're doing is setting up a part-time training school. It's got three streams: The Bible, Doctrine, and Ethics. There are also three different schools running shorter courses on the same topics during the week.
Noel: Who comes to that?
Paul: Anybody who wants. There's a big take up - people are interested in the Bible. Despite what some people might say, actually there's a hunger for the Word.
Noel: Do you have leaders' training?
Paul: Yes we meet the first Tuesday of each month for a training session for leaders.
Noel: And you have your next generation of leaders?
Paul: Oh yes, they're very much involved. I think that's one of the key things. I received a prophetic word which is a confirmation of the things we're doing. But interestingly Noel, not just about leaders, but about preachers. We concentrated on leadership, character and service and all the things. We tend to emphasis Luke 16 about "He who is faithful in little will be trusted with much". But I've been challenged prophetically about preachers. So I'm going to do a 'how to preach' club. It's difficult for me because I preach without knowing how I do it!
Noel: What happens on a Sunday at your services?
Paul: We have three services on a Sunday at 9.30 and 6.00pm. They're all similar with a different person preaching in the evening than in the morning, but the same topic.
I'm very strong on the need to have leaders who are in authority. I say to the worship leaders that they're not leading the worship - I'm leading worship! They lead the music! So I very definitely lead the meeting. Sunday morning was religion in Ireland but it's changing greatly.
Noel: Is there any room for what we call "Body of Christ ministry" with other people taking part, or are you too big for that?
Paul: The third service on Sunday evening is more participatory. We would have prophetic words, tongues and that sort of thing in the other meetings, but it's difficult to hear when you've so many people.
Noel: How many does the building hold?
Paul: Just over 400.
Noel: Do you still have three bands?
Paul: Yes. We now have three completely new bands. Robin Mark and Marie Lacey, who have been our mainstays for years have become well known and are in demand around the world now.
Noel: How do you communicate with your church members?
Paul: Our main method of communication is letters. I write to members and we also do a mail shot to everybody. We have a magazine every quarter and we've got a web site.
Noel: Are you on radio or TV?
Paul: No. Christianity is incarnational and it can only be properly displayed by living communities of people. Therefore, while I think that the television and radio does some good with regard to the gospel, I am a little concerned about "Christian TV." You can credit card your money over, and feel you've done your bit, but you're totally unaccountable to anybody and can live whatever way you like.
Noel: You move in baptism in the Spirit and encourage people into tongues?
Paul: Yes - we're very hot on that! We did a series recently focussing on what is baptism in the Spirit and release in tongues. I have a theory that the Toronto blessing - thank the Lord for it - actually worked against baptism in the Spirit. When people were being touched we assumed that as they fell down they were baptised in the Holy Spirit. We found that wasn't the case actually.
Noel: Repentance, saving faith, baptism - water baptism and baptism in the Spirit - are all important.
Paul: Absolutely. You need to birth people right. Otherwise they get caught up in troubles later on.
Noel: Do you keep membership records?
Paul: Yes, my line is if I am one of the shepherds of the flock and the Lord's going to hold me accountable for these people, I want to know who I'm accountable for! So we have a record and there's a formal joining and a formal membership. We go through classes and we have an interview where we cover all the issues, including money.
Noel: What do you do about lapsed members?
Paul: I felt the Lord challenge me recently about this and say that I need to start going after some backsliders again. What alarms me is the people who have served God for years and aren't doing it anymore.
Noel: Some who get baptised in their teens don't last too long.
Paul: Sure. Although second generation charismatics often go through a period of questioning whether this is really their faith or their parents' faith. Sometimes that crisis only takes a weekend, but sometimes it takes years of disillusionment.
Noel: They need to find and internalise their own faith away from their parents.
Paul: You've got to let your kids do that but it's hard to watch it sometimes.
Noel: How are your children doing?
Paul: They're doing very well. Two of my four children are now at university and one of them has just come back from a mission trip to the Philippines. She's never seen such responsive people to the gospel.
Noel: The poor take the kingdom better than the rich, as Jesus said.
Paul: Absolutely. I think that's a real challenge - it's the prerogative of the intellectual rich to debate things. The poor don't know what choice is. Money gives you choice.
Noel: Do you see Belfast as other UK cities, caught up in secularism?
Paul: Increasingly. There's been a lot of money poured into Belfast because of the peace agreement. And we're enjoying that financial dividend. I would say ten years ago we were twenty years behind the UK. Now, we've caught up and we're just like any typical UK city - the Troubles apart. There's a place in Belfast called the Golden Mile where all the pubs and clubs are. They say there are more people on the streets at 1.30 in the morning than there are at 1.30 in the afternoon. It produces insular people living their own lives.
Noel: And crime and homelessness?
Paul: Increasing crime and a growing drug problem. Also, 38 percent of all babies born in Belfast are illegitimate. I'm looking out the window now and I can see girls going up and down with little buggies and you look at them and think they can't be more than 15.
Noel: I take it the peace process will work in the end.
Paul: I think so. What you see at the minute is an unleashing of a cancer of violence. It worked itself out in sectarian violence before but that isn't happening now. It's essentially about power and control over drugs. But overall we're near the end. Hearts need to be changed but I don't think there's any going back.
Noel: Is church attendance going down?
Paul: Yes - like snow in a ditch in summer. I spoke to a Presbyterian minister yesterday about this and he was in pain - his church was bleeding to death.
Noel: It's the traditional churches that are going downhill?
Paul: Yes, but he was saying that even the supposedly evangelical Presbyterian churches are disenchanted.
Noel: How do you see "revival" these days?
Paul: I think there's a post-revival feel to things. The hype has gone out of it. Some people are disillusioned and disappointed. I think we just need to get on with God's work. We had a prophetic word recently and it was: "Work for the harvest, pray for revival".
Noel: Did you input the big "Soul Survivor" youth event in Manchester?
Paul: Yes. We sent a team over and they thought it was pretty impressive. The thing they found interesting was that all the young people they talked to had heard of the World Wide Message Tribe. That group has really made an impact in Manchester.
Noel: Their long term vision is their inner-city Eden project.
Paul: They've bought houses or been given them and they're going to live there among the people. I think they're going to have to start new churches. It's inevitable - those young people will not fit into a traditional box.
Noel: Do you have deprived areas in Belfast?
Paul: Yes. But people don't want to move out. There's still quite a community feel here. They want the area done up but they want to stay in their communities. We have a project in the inner city, two miles away from us. We bought a disused pub and refurbished it. Our two-fold aim is to empower the unemployed and to enrich family life. So we mainly work with folks who are long term unemployed and have had really good success at that. We have a low cost cafe, quality second hand kids clothes, and an NSPCC play group. We also organise lots of things for the mums. We run Alpha courses and a healing clinic.
Noel: And people get introduced to the church?
Paul: Yes. And through marrying people! People come to us who have been living together for 12 years who haven't even come to Christ, but they say we'd like us to marry them! It's a great entrance into the church!
Noel: What is the Lord saying to the charismatic churches in the UK?
Paul: There's a lot of people who are disappointed and disillusioned that revival hasn't come already. But there's no substitute for preaching the gospel, healing the sick, setting the captives free and planting churches. In the early to middle 90s most of the charismatic churches stopped church planting. This meant that the church turned in on itself. Then it started to turn out and pray. The need now is to plant churches again. So my plea to the British church is that we need more church planting.
'Talking To..'
Paul Reid is the leader of the Lifelink team, a group of churches in Ireland committed to church planting and resourcing other churches. He is also senior pastor of the Christian Fellowship church in Belfast.
believers which he sees as essential if we are going to reach the world effectively.
