Talking To John Noble
About the Charismatic movement and the future
John Noble was deeply involved in the early roots of the 'New Church' movement. With Christine, his wife, they planted their first church in the Romford area in 1967 and from this the 'Team Spirit' network of churches evolved.
Some years later, prophecies from Dale Gentry and Paul Cain brought John and Gerald Coates together. Their teams and churches for the most part were integrated into 'Pioneer'.
John is also Chairman of 'Charismata', a conference for National Charismatic Leaders which draws itinerant ministries from all denominations together.
He has authored a number of books, travels widely in the U.K. and abroad. He has five children and thirteen grandchildren.
In this interview, he talks to Huw Lewis, Director of Multiply and a senior leader in the Jesus Fellowship.
Huw: John, we last interviewed you five years ago. What's been happening in your life and ministry since then?
John: I've been involved with Gerald Coates after prophetic words from Dale Gentry and Paul Cain. We've continued to develop Pioneer which has always been a small network of churches with a much greater influence than its size. I'm still chairman of the Charismatic Leaders Conference and work quite a bit across the denominational streams.
My wife, Christine, and I do quite a bit in terms of international ministry, building bridges between some of our churches and indigenous churches overseas and we feel very positive about the future. I am now 65 and this is the beginning of a new phase for us.
How do you see yourself and Christine's ministry developing?
We've no intention of retiring! We feel called to work with some historic relationships and develop loose-knit teams - 'wheels within wheels' if you like.
I think the word most commonly used about our ministry is, 'parenting'. Our vision is to release, affirm and encourage ministry in others. I've had two or three really significant prophecies concerning this for Christine and myself from people outside the UK.
One came from a church in the Transkei in South Africa. I'd been there for the weekend, having a great time. The leader's wife wanted to express how they forgave the white men for everything they did to them. She knelt down and washed my shoes with her tears. The whole church was broken. I then asked if I could reciprocate and washed her feet with my tears. She then proceeded to give me a prophecy about my role as a father. I don't feel I've been a very good one - I feel like a graduate in a class of one who comes out top! There aren't many fathers and mothers around.
Who are the most significant people, John, who have particularly influenced and shaped you over the years?
I have to say Billy Graham! He has been there in the background as a role model to me. His speech at the White House, when he was addressing the nation after the Twin Towers episode, was so moving. He was described on national television as 'the pastor of the nation'.
I was very involved with the 'fathers' of the Charismatic and New Church movements in the early days: Michael Harper, Cecil Cousen, Arthur Wallis and Campbell McAlpine - those men had a great input into my life.
Gerald Coates obviously has been a great influence and I hope I've influenced him a little as well! I have also been affected by the humility of Sandy Millar of Holy Trinity, Brompton with Alpha. He and Nicky Gumbel have helped shape my understanding of what an apostle is.
My friend, Paul Raj in India, is a spiritual giant and Dr Myles Munroe of the Bahamas Faith Ministries, is someone I admire with his amazing gift of encouraging people to find their destiny.
You're one of the founding fathers of the Charismatic movement. What's happening with it now and what's the way forward?
The Charismatic movement and the New Churches have had a tremendous impact on the Church generally over the last 30-40 years. Years ago, Clive Calver said that the divisions in the church are increasingly becoming horizontal as opposed to vertical. In other words, there will be those that hide away in their Anglican box or Baptist box or New Church box but more and more Christians are opening up so that the differences between our churches are insignificant and our ability to cooperate is far greater.
What is the church of the future going to look like?
I believe the glass wall between Christians and the community at large must come down. People are hungry for the gospel and we are hungry to give it, but we don't speak the same language. If we can find the ways into people's hearts, we'll see a tremendous harvest. You as a movement have pioneered in this. We're going to see the church break out of its ghettos into the business communities, the education system, the arts and every level in society. Meetings and buildings will have very different functions.
Can you give us some examples of where you think that is working?
There is a wealth of information in current prophetic writings about new models of church from people like Jim Thwaites: Church Beyond The Congregation; John Drane: The McDonaldisation Of The Church; Michael Moynagh: Changing Church Changing World.
A most interesting and radical book is Wolfgang Simson: Houses That Change The World. Whilst it has its limitations, it challenges the cell church movement not to become institutionalised. What the church has done over and over again is to take something from God and package it. In the New Testament, the home and the life and the presence of Jesus in the house was really where church was at.
So, provided we break through in some of these areas, the charismatic New Churches have got a future ahead of them?
I believe so, although the Church as a whole is much more important. One of the key issues for the future is the generational one. I'm more and more convinced that we have to see three generations working together (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). We not only need new models of church but new models of how to be the family of God.
In our network there are certain young ministries that are really radical and go-ahead. They don't do things the way we did them, but they are saying they need the input of fathers.
For instance, Christine has been working with a church in Norway, developing and encouraging their leadership. They base the church around a heavy metal band, which reaches into the youth culture, and now they've got three youth cells functioning. Christine's a grandmother but she loves the music so it's not difficult for her to be involved!
How do we adapt church to a society that is increasingly pluralistic and secular?
John Wesley pointed out that middle-class Christians segregate life into boxes and fail to bring their faith into every area. We must get back to our community values and push the church out rather than suck people into the structures.
In our postmodern society people need a faith which is relevant to the real situations they find themselves in. People are concerned about relationships, creation and pollution in the world, and our lifestyle must reflect the kingdom we speak about. The gospel has a one-world view which says that God dwells in the heavens but the earth is His footstool. In Jesus, heaven and earth are one, and this particulalrly helps us to relate to dispossessed people who have no home or land. It is exciting to go to such a tribal people who are not recognised and say: 'in Jesus you have an identity and will inherit a land'.
How good is the Church at breaking down racial barriers?
In reality we have not been very good apart from one or two exceptions. Kensington Temple (London City Church) obviously have done a great job. They have 14 satellite churches which are nations or people groups within their church.
We tend to expect people to come into our churches and adapt to our culture. This is similar to the situation in Galatians where Jews tried to impose their culture on the Gentiles. Uniting the church, racially, will be achieved through friendships and serving people from different ethnic groups but also by including the leadership of these groups at town-wide and nation-wide levels.
When you look at Matthew Ashimolowo's church (Kingsway International Christian Church - one of the country's largest), the reality is that there's not many white people in it. I went from our Pioneer conference where we were talking about flexible models with very little structure and authority to Matthew Ashimolowo's church where he was saying exactly the opposite! But his desire is very much the same as ours - to empower people and, in the Nigerian tribal culture, his is the way to do it. Now, if Matthew works together with Gerald, as they are increasingly doing, then this demonstration of unity will begin to affect things locally and nationally.
Working together isn't a big porridge where we all gather together and have a watered-down style of worship that suits everybody. When we live and relate in harmony, our distinctives mean we all bring something wonderful to the party.
What about reconciliation?
During his reconciliation walk over the Crusade route from Cologne to Jerusalem, Lynn Green found that as he was humbling himself and repenting, the Muslim people he met opened their hearts, homes and minds to him. Many were seeking Jesus and some already believed in Jesus, but they couldn't use the word 'Christian'. Repentance broke down the barriers!
We can talk about Messianic Jews, why not Messianic Muslims? For these people, 'Christian' is equated with bombing Arab countries and sex in the Oval Room at the White House - not a word they can relate to. Perhaps we should use 'Messianic Christians' to disassociate ourselves from these other, so-called Christians!
After Lynn had done his walk, the Pope called for a paper to be written about the Catholic attitude towards the Crusades. He speaks now about 'purifying the memories' of peoplehoods and nations, as a means of healing our divisions.
Andy Au, one of our church leaders, was out in the Transkei with the Xhosas who had lost a lot of men in a ship that went down in Southampton during the war. They were not acknowledged for their bravery so there was considerable pain there. Andy, coming from Brighton, not far from Southampton, knelt down and apologised for that history. There was a time of weeping and reconciliation.
Later, Andy approached the Council in Brighton and now there is a plan to raise a monument and have 150 Xhosas over to commemorate the event. Nelson Mandela might also come and there will also be a monument in the Transkei. A healing has taken place - God grant us more of this!
The decade of evangelism wasn't an enormous success. Are you optimistic about our ability to reach out to others with the gospel in the 21st century?
I really am! The decade of evangelism wasn't a success because of this 'glass barrier'. But it forced us to ask the question: how can we do it?
Wolfgang Simson points out that evangelism was not talked about much in the New Testament - it was done! Christianity must become something visible that is seen to be working against the evils and divisions in society - then our message will be heard.
My fear is, that because we all feel we must do mission that we revert to old models out of condemnation and go through another ten years of failure. We must reject condemnation and cry out to God for the hooks that will enable us to reel people in for Jesus.
One example of this happened when John Drane went to a New Age Festival. He asked God what was the 'altar to the unknown god' that, like Paul, he could find to help him reach those people. In five minutes he found it - tarot cards. Christians hold up their hands in horror and say, 'tarot cards?' John points out that the original tarot cards are all based on biblical images. So he went back to the New Age Festival, laid those cards on the table, opened up a booth which invited people to discover the true meaning of the tarot cards - that's anointed fortune telling!
They've now got students in Bible college who were saved as a result of that experience. God is going to give us creative ways to reach the world out there.
What are the big mistakes that we need to learn from over these past years?
One of the primary mistakes that we made was that we preached the gospel of our church and the gospel of our relationships and not the gospel of Jesus. We must keep Jesus central.
A lot of what the New Churches did in the early days was done out of reaction against religious structures, condemnatory evangelism and denominationalism.
We mustn't now go back and reproduce the kind of churches we did 20-30 years ago. That would be arrogant and irrelevant. Our sense of frustration in not being able to reach people is a sign that we need totally different kinds of churches and the two key lessons learned - humility, and keeping Jesus at the very centre of everything that we do, will help us go forward in this.
One of the big developments of the past ten years is the growth of the apostolic streams. How do you see their future?
I've a book coming out in February called The Shaking and one of the key issues it addresses is apostolic ministry. I see an apostolic movement coming in which true apostles will equip the church for the work of ministry.
My belief is that the church is to be the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the pastor and the teacher. In other words, the anointing of Jesus must flow onto the whole church and then the church will turn the world upside down. The danger in recent years has been focusing on the ministry rather than the body.
We talk much about church planting and foundation laying being the ministry of apostles, and that is true. But the primary work of an apostle is reconciliation. The first work of Jesus, the great Apostle, was reconciliation. Apostles will bring together streams and movements. Men and women; young and old; black and white must all work in unison. Apostolic ministries will always reconcile - not through compromise - but through sacrifice and suffering.
When thinking about the events of September 11th, the one thing that has come through very clearly is the need for a world government. People recognise the need of a messiah to save us - a world leader. However, we know that 'world' government can only come as we make a path for Jesus, first in His body, the church, then in person.
Do you see anything else significant that is happening at the moment in terms of the Holy Spirit's movement?
Yes. What God is doing in the two-thirds world is really important. 'Toronto' has shaken the western or richer church and has humbled us, opening us up to new things. But the two-thirds world now is beginning to rise up in its missionary calling. People are coming to us in droves wanting to bless the 'fathers' who sent the missionaries to them.
What is God saying about the growth of the church in the two-thirds world and the relative decline of the church in the West?
One doesn't want to make sweeping statements but the pain that the church in the UK and Europe has gone through is producing a humility, at the same time the community is beginning to turn back to God. Surveys show that 60 per cent of people in the UK believe that Jesus is the son of God and over 30 per cent that Jesus rose physically from the dead.
Whilst there is huge church growth in some countries there is also superficiality. That's understandable because when people are getting saved at such a rate, it is hard to train and disciple them. This is exactly where we can contribute to their needs and they to ours. Our needs and their needs, our gifts and their gifts are complementary. We will see a global movement, led by global apostles from all streams and all people groups, that evangelise and disciple nations together!
Do you feel there's some significance in the gospel moving where there's poverty?
Yes. Today we're seeing poverty in places where we never saw it before, for example here in the UK and in the USA.
My friend, Stuart Murray, talks about the church beginning life on the margins of society where Jesus operated. After 300 years the church was empowered and we lost our ability to communicate with those on the margins. We are now beginning to see the church disempowered. Indeed, there is actually discrimination against Christians, even in parts of the western world, for example, in the USA. This pushes us to the margins where we'll rediscover an attraction for the poor and the poor will be attracted to the church.
In some places today people are queuing up to turn to Christ. We're hearing stories of millions of low caste Hindus, disillusioned with Hinduism, looking at other religions and their leaders are actually talking to Christians. These are people who are at the bottom of the pile. We really could begin to see whole segments of society and people groups turning to Christ in huge numbers.
However, we must also channel our resources towards the poor. We know that 97% of the church's assets are spent on itself and 3% on mission.
How is the Charismatic Leaders Conference changing?
Recently, we've tried to broaden the conference to include charismatic leaders in the arts, business, education, and younger leaders.
Do you see a new generation with genuine apostolic ministry emerge?
Of course, but I don't think they'll be like the older generation. They won't wear the same clothes or say things in the same way!
In the beginning of the New Churches the songwriters took the ministry and interpreted it into song. Today, people like Delirious? and Godfrey Birtill are doing that again. They're prophetic because they're taking what God is saying and breaking it down into a form that other groups of people can imbibe. Songs like, 'Outrageous Grace', are often more influential than our spoken ministries.
Others are prophesying and ministering through different gifts, for example, business. There are countries where we can't go unless we're in business. I'm meeting apostles in China who are 'apostling' through business. They don't call themselves Christians.
What have been your heartaches and disappointments?
I've never got over the loss of genuine friends who are not walking with me now. I've also been disappointed that some of the things we saw emerging have not matured as quickly as I'd hoped. For example, we've largely lost the vision of community living that we had. We're trying to look at that again. Our house is not the best house for community living but we do have eight people living here in four bedrooms, representing three generations!
As we seek to understand what God is saying about new ways of being church, there is a lot of pain. People do not understand change. I've been waking up recently at 4am with a sense of foreboding, 'Lord, how can we help people through the change?'
Two other areas that we have not seen our expectations fulfilled are the area of the creative arts and the whole gender issue. If God is a creative God, the church should be creative and awash with colour. Many of our meetings are so boring, uncreative and monochrome. On the gender issue, women are people of God, with a destiny and therefore they must be released into ministry. The missionary movement in China is primarily women, under 25! We have to find ways of empowering our women to do everything that God has for them to do.
What are your own dreams and visions for the future - both for yourself and also for the church?
Christine says: 'If you cut John, he bleeds church'! My great desire is to give Jesus a church that is worthy of all He's done for us. I really want to give the rest of my days, my resources and abilities to help that happen, remembering it's Jesus who builds the church. In Revelation 12, we see a pure, holy woman giving birth to a son - a corporate son who brings victory by the blood of Jesus, their testimony and sacrifice. My vision is to see that kind of church moving in the authority, the sacrifice and love of Jesus.
Have you got a particular word beyond that for the church today?
Be bold and humbly believe in what God has called us to do - we have a vision and a destiny. Move forward with great humility and move together - we'll never make it alone!
'Talking To..'
John Noble was deeply involved in the early roots of the 'New Church' movement. With Christine, his wife, they planted their first church in the Romford area in 1967 and from this the 'Team Spirit' network of churches evolved.
He has authored a number of books, travels widely in the U.K. and abroad. He has five children and thirteen grandchildren.
