Talking To Philip Jinadu
About relational evangelism
Philip Jinadu worked as a national evangelist with Youth for Christ and, since then, has been part of the Pioneer Network.
He recently moved to Bristol and established ICQ Ministries. This helps to support him in a city-wide evangelist ministry, networking with a wide range of churches in Bristol. He is a well-known speaker.
Now aged 34, Philip is married with two children.
In this interview he talks to Noel Stanton, senior pastor of the Jesus Fellowship.
Noel: You've now moved to Bristol since we interviewed you last year. How did that happen?
Philip: Last year my wife and I felt that God was leading us to work in Bristol. We prayed that God would provide somewhere for us to live. I felt God say, 'I already have a house for you,' and then my wife prayed over a map and I had a dream of the house that God had for us.
When we got to Bristol we found a house which was in the centre of the area that Kate had seen in the map and had all the features that had appeared in my dream. It turned out that we were the third generation of Christians to own the house.
However, when it came to move, there was a problem and the whole house purchase chain fell apart. We felt God had called us to Bristol and so to Bristol we would go! We burnt our bridges by selling our old house, got in the car and drove to Bristol. Our solicitor said that the sale had fallen through and probably nothing would happen for another six weeks, but we said we'd just hang in and see how things develop. A couple of hours later he rang up and told us there'd been a major development and we could exchange, complete and move in within the next hour!
Noel: You see your gifting as an evangelist?
Philip: Yes, very much so. When I was 18 years old I really discovered that evangelism was the call on my life. My parents gave me the name Philip because they felt that God said that I was going to be an evangelist.
Noel: You spent four years with Youth for Christ as a national evangelist and seven years with Pioneer.
Philip: Yes. I still see myself as very much part of Pioneer. It was really hard and painful to uproot and leave Cobham where we had been so happy. We're realising that God is doing a new thing and it's not so much about simply Pioneer or any of the other streams or denominations, but it's more about relational networks of churches and streams working and flowing together.
Noel: Was your time at Pioneer frustrating or fulfilling?
Philip: It was a wonderful seven years. For anyone involved in church leadership, frustration is part of the job description, because you're dealing with less than perfect situations, and less than perfect people. I think the main thing for me, as an evangelist, was the opportunity to work at a grass roots level within a real church. A lot of the things I'd been involved with before were quite theoretical. I think evangelists need to be based in a local church. It was a time of shaping which helped develop me. My context now is city-wide - working across churches. So I'm able to keep my sharpness as an evangelist, but within a very strong ongoing network of church life.
Noel: Were you part of a team that brought growth?
Philip: Yes. We saw some great things, particularly with young people in the schools.
Noel: So what is your method when a church invites you to come and evangelise?
Philip: Well, I'm not sure if it's a method, but I work with churches on the basis of a partnership together over years.
Noel: So you're not into campaigns?
Philip: Not in isolation, because I think the kind of bolt-on evangelism must always end up falling off the church at a later stage. We need to see a greater culture within our churches of every member reaching out to their friends.
Noel: What do you actually do?
Philip: Normally when I go into a church I work with their leadership team. The leaders have to own the vision and commit themselves to reaching out to their friends, and aligning their lifestyles so that they can be meeting ordinary people in the world. Once the leaders are owning it, the vision very quickly travels through the church culture.
We kick off with a couple of months of an equipping course, called 'Winning Ways' which we build around the small group structures in a church. There's also an 'on-the-job' dynamic, with weekly reporting back, encouraging one another and praying with one another. Then it's a case of identifying people within the church who have got a natural instinct for outreach and some level of evangelistic gifting. We then need to see those individuals truly engaged in the heart of church.
My role is a mentoring one, releasing them to be a catalyst for growth within their church. So it's not just me, but there's a whole mobilisation of every member into ministry. Once you've got that underway, it's simply a matter of putting together a strategic process, so that relationships are built.
Noel: Where do you minister in your evangelism gifts? Is it in the church building, or do you go around clubs, schools or groups?
Philip: Most of my own speaking and challenging people to faith happens in a church context. The two biggest ones are 'Alpha' and guest services.
Noel: Do you 'draw in the net' at the end, as we used to say?
Philip: Yes. Particularly at the guest services. Also in the work that we do at Alpha there are a couple of good opportunities for drawing in the net. But the ongoing work is vital. We've got Christians who are geared up and have been building relationships with these people for some time. The onus is very much on the Christian who has been reaching out to that individual, to continue to disciple them and lead them further forward on that process.
Noel: What about baptism?
Philip: Again we encourage it as part of the process. We take into account the sensibilities of different church traditions, but in most cases it will be baptism by total immersion as a public testimony. So far I haven't baptised enormous numbers of people. I want to serve the church with an emphasis on the body rather than just do everything myself. I think in scripture you get the word 'evangelist' mentioned three times, whereas the word 'witness' mentioned 69 times. The evangelist facilitates, equips and serves the vision of the witnesses.
Noel: How do you respond to the people who say 'the evangelist never leaves us with disciples'?
Philip: It has been a problem with some models of evangelism. It's what I see as a kind of painter/decorator mentality, where evangelists are brought in to do the job that you really don't want to do yourself, and you hope that it doesn't cause too much mess or cost too much. That's been a model that has dominated the church in the last few years.
My heart is very much to see team leadership within churches with leaders and pastors owning the decisions, taking responsibility and working with evangelists, in a process of discipleship. Sometimes I feel like an evangelist trapped in a church leader's body, because of that heart and that passion for the building of the church. I'm not content unless I see people becoming disciples and then bringing other people into discipleship.
Noel: So you're the kind of evangelist that makes disciples?
Philip: I want to help produce Christians who make disciples. As an evangelist, there's nothing I love more than to empower Christians to do the discipling themselves. There's a lot of 'foster-parent' evangelism in the church today, where someone leads a person to Christ and then passes them on to a stranger to follow them up and try to bring them into an unfamiliar church. That's very difficult to pull off. I'd love to see our churches filled with people who are resourced and equipped to reach out to their friends, to see them come to faith and then continue to disciple them themselves.
Noel: There are people who say the reason we don't have disciples is we don't have the faith to proclaim the fullness of truth in terms of the discipleship call.
Philip: I'm not sure how much I'd agree with that. If you look at the calls to faith in the scripture, there's no one established pattern. Discipleship is moving people along a process. My vision of church evangelism is that Christians are already engaged in the process of moving people closer to Jesus before conversion and this just continues naturally past conversion.
Noel: Do you have leaders' training?
Philip: Yes we meet the first Tuesday of each month for a training session for leaders.
Noel: At what point do you see a person as regenerated?
Philip: I believe in a kind of crisis within a process and I would look to a clear decision to commit your life to Jesus Christ. Sometimes it's difficult to see when a person has crossed that line. I find baptism to be the most helpful public affirmation of faith.
Noel: So you wouldn't quarrel with David Pawson's four points of conversion: repentance towards God, salvation in Jesus Christ and baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit?
Philip: No, I wouldn't quarrel with that.
Noel: You bring people through to baptism in the Spirit?
Philip: Yes.
Noel: Speaking in tongues?
Philip: Different churches have a different emphasis. I don't think you can be born again without being born of the Spirit. All that I'm interested in is seeing sustainable church growth.
Noel: Do you teach the church to reach out to multi-racial scenes, gays and lesbians and other marginalised groups?
Philip: I feel it's important to reach out to your natural network of relationships. Like the good Samaritan, who's going about his every day life and he is confronted with a person who has a need. That is the model that I use for most of my work in churches. It's not heavily targeting a particular group. Those we're in regular contact with are the ones we have the best chance to reach. The main thrust of my work is relational, lifestyle evangelism.
Noel: So if 3,000 asylum seekers came to Bristol wouldn't you feel that this was an opportunity that you or the churches ought to take up?
Philip: Certainly! I'm not saying you use an exclusively relational model. I'm just saying that that's the thing I'm concentrating on at the moment. But I've also made links with professional outreach programmes that do different things, like outreach to prostitutes.
Noel: Let's talk about ICQ. What is ICQ?
Philip: ICQ is just a structure to facilitate what I'm doing. It enables me to work across a number of churches without having to be a burden to any one particular church.
Noel: Do you rely on the churches you serve financing you?
Philip: We have a combination of individual partners and churches supporting us. We look first for God to supply.
Noel: I take it you yourself belong to a particular church?
Philip: Yes. It's actually the church that I used to belong to when I was in Bristol several years ago, called Woodlands Church.
Noel: In terms of ministry, how do you see ICQ developing?
Philip: I'm working as a city evangelist and I'm looking to have another major city evangelist join us next year. I'm looking for four the year after. My thinking is that any one of us can significantly oversee and work with a maximum of ten churches and already there are 40 churches that I work with. And we're looking for that 40 to become 100 over the next few years.
Noel: Have you got a bigger vision to reach other cities in the UK?
Philip: Yes! I very much feel that God has called me to the cities of Great Britain. And in ten years time I'd like to see ICQ working significantly in Europe. However, I think before we do that we've got to establish something of real credibility and value in Britain. And before I can do that I need to be established and do something credible in one city.
Noel: You have a course called 'Winning Ways'. Is this all part of the strategy?
Philip: Yes it is. Because the strategy revolves around people who then work with groups and individuals in a very intense way. 'Winning Ways' kicks that process off.
Noel: So this is not so much leadership training as witnessing training. In other words you're training people to win souls rather than training them for church leadership?
Philip: Yes very much so. But it's more equipping than training. What we're looking to do is to help people understand where they fit in the body of Christ as far as outreach is concerned.
Noel: You're really wanting to root them in the Lord and root them in the church?
Philip: Yes.
Noel: How does your 'Winning Ways' operate then? Is it something people do in cells or do they come together in groups?
Philip: We don't have a 'one size fits all' mentality but we try to tailor things to the most helpful method for that church. So I've done it in someone's front room with a dozen people but I'm also doing it within a Christian Union context in a university. Tonight, for example, I'll be speaking in a hall with five different home groups from one area of the city, coming together especially for this. But always there has to be the ongoing small group dynamic. 'Winning Ways' is a catalyst to start a process which is then maintained through the group.
Noel: So it's really Ephesians 4 - you're equipping the saints?
Philip: Absolutely. And for some people their lifestyle doesn't permit them to be part of an ongoing weekly group. For them things like triplets become an option, so that they're meeting with work colleagues or students on their course.
Noel: How else do you do the equipping?
Philip: There'll be various different events and structures that people can buy into during the year, to help them engage in cultivating the ground, sowing the good seed, reaping a harvest. We've got a discipleship course which is called 'Up Close and Personal' which is a ten-session course to help someone in the first stages of their Christian faith.
Noel: Does church planting have any place within your evangelism?
Philip: Some of the churches we work with in Bristol have got a very advanced church planting programme, and that is their biggest method. The church that I'm part of has planted several times. It's seven times bigger than it was when I left seven years ago.
We want to give individual Christians biblical principles for how they engage with the world, how they communicate their faith, and how they bring people through the process of coming to faith. Now that can happen as they go into a church plant, it can happen within an established congregation, it can happen in a Christian Union, it can happen in a school. It can happen wherever the Christian goes, provided they have got some basic foundational understanding of how to make evangelism a lifestyle.
Noel: I take it you have an emphasis on reaching young people?
Philip: It's part of what I do. I've got a bit of an edge because of my background in youth evangelism.
Noel: In the process of discipling young people, how do you deal with some of the problems you're sure to meet. For example, cohabitation. Are you very gracious or are you more 'in your face'?
Philip: I think the principle is to move people forward. With a genuine conversion you want to see the fruit happening in peoples' lives. The more that this has to be forced and coerced, the less likely it is that the person has had a genuine conversion experience. There is a need for graciousness but I don't think that's an excuse for licence and liberty in an unhelpful way. But discipleship is a process, it needs to happen in lifestyle.
Noel: You seem to be saying that the church that is growing and moving forward is the church that engages in church planting.
Philip: Yes. I think there are seasons in churches. There's many years where a lot of church planting takes place, and there's other times where it's more based in the congregations that are established. My emphasis is on small groups, whether house groups or cell groups or Christian unions or whatever, which act as little mini church plants. It can happen anywhere you have a group of Christians together who are in relationship and accountable and encouraging one another.
Noel: How do you see revival in all of this?
Philip: My view is pragmatic: you pray as if it all depends on God, and you work as if it all depends on you. I don't like the kind of passive mentality where we wait for God to pour something down from the sky. Instead, we need to grab hold of the talents that God has given us and multiply and develop them.
One of the things that Gerald Coates said is that there's no revival without the gospel. I think that as we communicate the good news to people, we're more likely to see revival than if we simply wait in our church buildings for that 'pouring down from the sky'.
Noel: Prayer without evangelism is not really effective.
Philip: There's a very exciting partnership between intercessory ministry and evangelists. I'm always looking to make links with people that have a call and a gift to pray. The strategy we have in ICQ is very much prayer based. I don't believe that anyone becomes a Christian without prayer, and the whole strategy is driven along by individual Christians praying every day for their friends.
Noel: Do you have a list of partners in ICQ?
Philip: Yes, I have a prayer letter that comes out every quarter.
Noel: So these people support you in prayer as well as financially?
Philip: Absolutely - and the prayer is the most vital one. My experience is that if God orders something He always pays for it. If we're moving in what God has called us to do then the funds are the least of our worries. There's a lot of prayer that's bubbling up in the nation at the moment and I'm excited about that. I want to see how that intercession can be twinned with a mobilisation of witness.
Noel: What are your dreams for the future?
Philip: I dream of the kind of church that Jesus wants, where outreach, salvation, discipleship, healing and social action is the norm. And where, instead of declining at two per cent each year, we're seeing churches that are growing significantly every year. I'd like to see Bristol become a light for the nation, where what God is leading us into can be transferred to other cities. I'm looking for thousands of people turning to Christ and I'm looking for spiritual renewal - not just in Britain, but spreading across into the whole of mainland Europe.
Noel: And relational evangelism is the emphasis.
Philip: It is, yes. It's not the be all and end all, but it's the bare minimum that we should all be involved in.
This article was taken from our Jesus Life magazine, and was first published in April 2001.
'Talking To..'
Philip Jinadu worked as a national evangelist with Youth for Christ and, since then, has been part of the Pioneer Network.
Now aged 34, Philip is married with two children.
