HUW: Flavio, how did you find Jesus?

Flavio: I come from a comfortable, middle class family. My mother was a Catholic, my dad was an atheist. When I was about 15, I began to drink too much and got involved in drugs - marijuana, initially, then heavier drugs like cocaine. At the same time, my parents got divorced and the family business began to go down hill – life was a big mess.

I was very much involved in the carnival scene in Rio de Janeiro, although I lived 1000km away. I was also beginning to search for meaning. I remember walking 100km to a Catholic shrine with my family and praying on my knees there, thinking that it would sort stuff out in my life. But it didn’t!

I also got heavily involved in witchcraft. Eventually a very good friend of mine, who went to a very small Christian house group, invited me to go along. At first I refused as I didn’t like the Christians that I’d met.

When was this?

This was at the beginning of 1989, when I was 25.

That year we went to Rio for the carnival as usual. I was part of a samba dance school team. Interestingly, the word carnival means ‘feast of the flesh’. It certainly was a time of complete freedom amongst younger folks, doing whatever we wanted - drink, drugs, sex - with no boundaries. Carnivals in Rio are also immersed in witchcraft.

But on the way home, I began to hear a voice inside me. It told me that my life was like the costume I had been wearing: shiny on the outside but corrupt inside. At first I thought it was a hangover, but the voice just kept coming.

Eventually, my friend invited me again to go to the small house meeting. The message was absolutely spot on for me. God just grasped my heart completely. I couldn’t help myself, I was weeping for the entire service as my whole life went through my mind. I thought ‘how can someone know so much about what’s going on underneath the surface?’ A whole work of transformation began and this friend and I started evangelising my other friends. Some of them came to the Lord.

Which town was that in?

Uberlandia, which is between Brasilia and Sao Paulo. My family were very well known locally, so my conversion made a big impact! The first month was very testing. Some old friends regularly came to my house to offer me drugs again. But I was baptised in the Holy Spirit very soon after that and found a release in laughter.

It was marvellous. Soon after that I got more involved in evangelism. We began to work in schools, with many people coming to the Lord.

We began to gather a committed bunch of people together and then hired the central theatre in town to have evangelistic meetings once a month. The place was always packed, and there was a massive power of the Holy Spirit with many people coming to Christ. Then we rented a cinema building. This was right in the heart of the night life of the town.

It was just amazing - lots of people coming to the Lord: a mighty move of God.

Was there something new happening in Brazil in terms of the Spirit at that time, anyway?

We only found this out later! We knew nothing about church life. We were just enjoying the Lord and evangelising. But after some years we began to gain a place of leadership in the church. I think our leaders were wise and bold, because they faced lots of criticism from other leaders thinking that we were doing something crazy. They trusted what the Holy Spirit was doing. We began to get in touch with other leaders of churches, and then we found out what God was doing in the nation.

So, most of what was happening was outside denominations and institutional churches and in the new churches?

Not necessarily. Some denominational churches grew and we saw wonderful things as they were open to the work of the Holy Spirit - that was the key thing. I think the move of the Holy Spirit was in all those churches where there wasn’t a wrong spirit of control.

How did you come to form the ‘Salt of the Earth’ church?

There were about a hundred of us who really got involved in evangelism and began to structure ourselves into house groups. The house groups all started to grow as a result of this wave of personal evangelism. Nobody ever wanted to go home after the services finished, there was such a supernatural joy around!

God told us that the house groups were the way to train new leaders and put them in situations where they would disciple and care for others and exercise all the spiritual gifts.

The church grew to around 500 people and we decided to move to a new building in the town centre. At this point, we had two main initiatives. Firstly, there was the social action work. ‘Salt of the Earth’ has always focussed on an outward vision. The heart of our foundation centres on young people, evangelism, social action and missions. The local council gave us some crèches to look after. Families from the church looked after the children and connected with their parents.

Secondly, there was an ecclesiastical initiative, involving the house groups, training the new young leaders and planting new churches – especially working in poor neighbourhoods.

How did you evangelise?

By all available means! About 90% of our congregation was evangelized relationally, through personal connections at work, schools, with friends and relatives. We also believe in proclamation, going to pubs, streets and squares, and using a truck that becomes a stage. We evangelise through arts, dance, street theatre – with all kinds of different music styles and bands, including rock, metal and country music. There isn’t a specific style - we’re seeking the lost in every possible way! What do you do about training the young converts?

We spend time praying for them, blessing them, sharing with them in house groups and taking them with us in all we are doing. We seek to be their friend - it’s very relational.

Where did the name ‘Salt of Earth’ come from?

We always understood that our call is to be salt. We wanted to be more of an element, to help the process of flavouring in the world. It’s an important part of our DNA to make a difference for God in the power of the Holy Spirit.

How did your vision for Europe come about?

This began in 1992. A number of leaders came together to seek God about what was going on in Brazil. There was a very strong unity among us. We sensed God’s burden for missions and the word came to us about Brazil being a resource nation for missionaries. In the past we were a missionary-receiving nation and now we were to be a missionary-sending nation. My senior pastor, Paulo Borges, Junior, went to London.

What happened?

He was travelling on the underground in London and God spoke to him very strongly from Malachi 4:6 - “God will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers.” He began to understand that our spiritual fathers are here in Europe. But he saw many difficulties in the church - declining numbers, buildings being sold, many young people turning their backs on God and the church. He felt very strongly that God was calling us to come to help our spiritual fathers, to bless them and to work along side them.

He went back to Brazil and shared what he’d experienced here. It was a time of major breakthrough - there were tears and people crying with all kinds of manifestations happening in that powerful meeting. Someone had a picture of a bridge - a Roman bridge with several arches. The bridge was partly in England and partly in Brazil - the arches were city churches that would take the pressure of the movement. This bridge was to be a dual carriageway with many lanes - a bridge of exchange of resources, whether human, spiritual, or financial - for the purpose of mutual strengthening in both nations.

This is how ‘Go to the Nations’ was born?

Yes. It had two main focuses - firstly, a partnership of Brazilian churches with British churches which would lead to working together in other nations. Secondly, and this is very important, joining together with other churches to plant new churches. Thousands of missionaries have now crossed this bridge between both places.

When did you come over here for the first time and what was your vision?

My wife and I came in March 1993.

My vision has been to build this bridge, to help and equip the churches in the UK and to be alongside them, encouraging them in this missionary work. It’s all for the gospel. We were sent and this has been our life - giving ourselves to build this bridge and to be one of the arches.

How did you find the church over here when you first came?

I found various churches doing very well, like the Jesus Army. I remember in 1993 we went to your Trafalgar Square Festival and I found that absolutely great. We saw lots of churches doing well, with God using networks and streams.

But also we found a lot of discouragement in many leaders and a lack of enthusiasm to move forward. Many leaders were completely worn out, and there was an absence of young leaders. It was a big shock to us that there were very few young people in the churches we went to.

We were also taken aback by the way that the church, with some exceptions, seemed to be blind to the nations God was sending them. There was a massive mission field on their door steps! When we went to Europe we were even more shocked! Compared to them the United Kingdom was in revival!

What is the structure of ‘Go to the Nations’.

‘Go to the Nations’ is not an organisation. We have a small legal structure but we don’t want it to be a missionary organisation. It’s a relational movement to facilitate unity, pioneering and mission. This is not only crosscultural mission, but missions in general.

We began building contacts, making friends and then groups from Brazil started to come and see the situation here. Folks thought we were absolutely crazy to be missionaries in Europe – they felt that Europe doesn’t need anything or anybody; we were wasting money and resources.

And after that?

We took some British leaders over to Brazil so we could start building a mutual understanding. We began to spend time with church leaders, showing them that we were not here to do our own thing. We shared on the word from Malachi, and the vision of missions coming from the ends of the earth back to ‘Jerusalem’, where it all began. We established two conferences - one here in the UK and one in Brazil, to gather all these people together.

There were many different cultures and different denominations involved so it was a major challenge to build partnerships with them. Some of these have been very successful, others not so much. Some churches couldn’t cope with it.

And how did you actually end up in Cobham?

Cobham wouldn’t normally be a place for missionaries! One of the groups that came over from Brazil stayed in Guildford. They met Ron Viner, who’s been with ‘Go to the Nations’ from the early days, and we got to know Stuart Lindsell, who is one of the leaders of ‘Pioneer’. They’d heard a prophetic word that this region was going to be connected to Brazil. They invited me over here to plant the vision in this region in 2001.

And you’ve been here ever since?

Yes. Remarkably, Stuart Lindsell gave me his house to live in, so we’ve been living here, rent free ever since. That was a major step of faith by him. We’re here basically to expand the vision to this region - London, for us, is a key city.

What do you see as the major difficulties that the Western church needs to break down to regain real spiritual life?

There’s no formula for bringing people to Christ. In South America I’ve found a greater passion for Jesus with people literally putting their jobs and reputations at risk when sharing the gospel. There’s got to be a breakthrough of evangelistic zeal, boldness, and activity. Passionate love for the Lord overcomes fear.

It’s what we call in our church the ‘Andrew’ effect. You hear the word and you have to speak about the word to your friends. ‘Come, look, this is what I’ve found.’

The church here is very consistent, solid and enduring but too complicated!

It’s first love that we’ve lost in some ways. It’s no good having the structure in place without the passion.

I’m not against structure, our bodies have structure - we don’t stand without our skeletons! But these structures are here to serve who we are in our purpose for life. Christians have got to strengthen their relational bridges in work, sports and every sphere of life. And as we strengthen these we start gaining trust and showing a different spirit. We cannot be complacent, silent, and safe.

The word became flesh, so there has got to be a tension and conflict. When you bring the kingdom of light into confrontation with the kingdom of darkness there’s a head on crash. I see many people waste a lot of time trying to avoid this confrontation. It is unavoidable. If you have relationships and friendships, this is what cushions the impact. I am still in touch with my non-Christian friends years after my conversion, and my conversion was very radical. From time to time they ask for prayer. I think the breakthrough will come if we really go for it relationally.

How you see the shape of the church developing in the 21st century?

I don’t want to spend my whole life just discussing the shape. I want to be church! It’s a very crucial time when e need to distinguish between the negotiable and the non-negotiable in the kingdom of God. Without these non-negotiables we are not going to be Christ’s church.

For me identity at the moment is a key issue because our mission comes from our identity. It’s better to discover who you are in Christ than to know what you should do. Identity defines mission, and will define what type of church we are going to be. Mission must not come out of frustrations, disappointments or bad experiences in the past because then our motivation becomes wrong. And if our motivation becomes wrong the fruit will become a rotten fruit that will not last. But the fruit that will last will come out of my identity in Christ. My mission is the fruit of my desire to see others experience what I have experienced and have received.

The shape is irrelevant.

Have you got an example of this?

Locally, we have a bunch of heavy metal rock guys in our church. Just two of them found Jesus, a few years ago. They won some friends for Christ, came to church and sat at the back. They were very strange for most ordinary, middle class people. They formed a band with this very heavy metal music –with Christian lyrics! I never liked this type of music, even when I was into drugs!

We asked them what they wanted to do to reach their friends and they said they wanted ‘an underground church’ in a square where they have a meeting point. So we hired them a building there and they decorated it. I don’t like that church, but they are shaping it themselves and they now gather sixty people twice a week. They are going to the square and reaching these people and their families and loving them and caring for them.

They’re great and they have defined and shaped the church themselves. We didn’t think about defining it for them!

How do you see your basic ministry?

Since I moved to the UK I’ve had a very evangelistic ministry. I needed to understand that I’m not here to evangelise for the British church, but to motivate them to do it and to equip them to do it. We need to connect Brazilian evangelistic passion with the UK solidity and thoughtfulness.

We are also building a bridge to the nations which is apostolic in the sense of mission. We’ve been sent with a vision. So my ministry would be a builder, with a ministry of encouragement, strengthening the church in this nation.

How do you see the future of the church, prophetically? Will the church get smaller but be more effective as a radical church on the margins? Do you see a reviving going on within the main structures of church life?

I think there is a revival going on, but revival is a process. Revival is not an overnight massive amount of dreams coming true that end up in a church building. For me today, God is doing something different. There are very many encouraging signs amongst young people. I see major changes in unity, levels of commitment to prayer, the humility of the church and growth.

We need to be careful that we are bearing fruit of the Spirit, with major good levels of unity among leaders, a process of humbling and prayer. I see the elements for a fresh start. There are nations coming to help you. I see a bright future. I see a missionary zeal coming back.

On the other hand, I see the world’s system being shaken everywhere. People are feeling more insecure. They need a secure church which can provide a shelter.

How can we take advantage of our multi-cultural society?

You have a great opportunity with your language which many nations want. Language schools can provide a bridge of communication with these ethnic groups. Open your houses to these people and show you are friends. Usually these ethnic groups are in need of relationships and people who are willing to help them and their children. We need to break our schedules and obsession with time and begin to open up ourselves to these ones. I’m talking about flexibility not mess!

There’s a wonderful opportunity for the gospel. We can reap a lot.

Where does your future lie?

We live one day at a time but my family and I are praying about that at the moment. I do have a passion to plant churches on the continent. Our vision is not just to stay in the UK but to go in partnership with British churches to Europe. I’d like to see a ‘School of Exchange’, where the gifts of the nations are welcomed and shared with anybody, where we can learn from each other. The school would be like a channel. The UK is such a key place for something like that because folks are flocking here to get knowledge and to study. Christians have something vital to give them!