Talking To Joel Edwards
General Director of the Evangelical Alliance UK
Joel Edwards, born in Kingston, Jamaica in 1951, arrived in Britain in 1960.
After a theology degree at London Bible College, he spent a decade as a Probation Officer, and in 1988, became General Secretary of the African Caribbean Evangelical Alliance, whose role is to bring black churches together. Four years later he became UK Director of the EA, and, finally, General Director in 1997.
He has written two books and frequently broadcasts on the radio.
Joel and his wife have two children.
He remains an ordained Minister of the New Testament Church of God - one of the UK's largest Black denominations.
In this interview, he talks to Huw Lewis, Director of Multiply and part of the apostolic team of the Jesus Fellowship.
Huw Lewis: What changes in the Evangelical Alliance have you seen since you took over from Clive Calver as general director in 1997?
Joel Edwards: The biggest change in the evangelical world is the resurgence of evangelical confidence. Evangelicals no longer carry a siege mentality. The EA is just bursting with creativity and an entrepreneurial spirit. It's probably at its highest for 50 years.
What significant things has the EA has been able to influence? Firstly, media. We are taken much more seriously in the public arena than ever before. Secondly, the evangelical commitment to be a transforming presence is being heard through the excellent ministry of organisations like TEAR fund, The Shaftesbury Society and Faithworks.
What is the current size of the EA? We represent about a million people. There is steady growth and we now represent over 3200 churches and 730 societies.
In terms of individual members that's a real challenge for us - as it is for many Christian and non-Christian organisations. Post-modernity has eroded the tendency for individuals to become members of anything.
When we did the Face Values mission recently we were amazed to find that two thirds of the churches who registered with us were non EA member churches. That's very fascinating. Here are people who were seriously identifying with what we're doing, without actually being members.
Can we say a bit about Face Values? Do you feel that it achieved something of what it aimed to? We set out to build a 12-storey building, and came away with a pretty good six- storey one! There were two main disappointments. Firstly, we didn't gain the level of ownership from some of our big societies and organisations.
The second disappointment was that we didn't have the kind of funds to be as pervasive as we wanted on the billboards. We wanted to see 1500 of those, but could only manage about 440 because of the funds.
But we have been massively encouraged by the amount of churches who plugged into 'Say Sorry' Sunday. We also had something like 47,000 hits on the National Forgiveness Day web site in the first few days. For me the accolade was to have on Radio 4 'Thought for the day', the chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, basing his talk on the National Day of Forgiveness.
How do you see this developing? We have just started to shift the focus from evangelicals being united for the sake of unity, to evangelicals working together in order to impact society. And from that point of view we think Face Values has a long term future.
What do you feel are the key social action areas? I would want to under gird the whole of our engagement with a theology of hope. When Jim Wallis came to take our Temple address this June he said something very interesting. "The real challenge for us as Christians is not liberal theology against orthodoxy, it is scepticism versus hope". I think that is profound. Whatever we're doing is informed by a desire to take hope to our community, not condemnation nor an argument.
As evangelicals we're never going to come short of saying, "God, through Jesus' birth, life and death, brings personal transformation through the forgiveness of sin." That's an evangelical distinctive and we will always carry a passion to say it in the media.
The specific things I'm concerned about are, firstly, issues to do with our children and the future. One of the things that happened in Wales as a result of Face Values, was a video: 'Land of our Children'. What will happen if the future generation of children fail to have any connection with the vibrant Christian witness because the church is out of step with what is happening in society?
Secondly, I am personally very concerned about crime and what is happening on our streets. I've been working very closely with Scotland Yard over the last couple of years, to see what strengths the church can bring to this issue.
I'm also concerned about racism, asylum and immigration and how these things continue to have a profound effect on what happens within our community.
Thirdly, the big thing which I'm becoming increasingly involved with on the international scene is looking at the issue of debt, and what is happening in developing worlds and how the balance between rich and poor nations needs to be addressed prophetically from a Christian perspective.
What excites me is the fact that there is such a diversity of burdens and concerns within the evangelical church, and within our membership that I can scarcely think of a key community or society issue which some part of the evangelical church is not concerned with.
How do you see our impact as evangelicals on the whole issue of racial justice? Evangelicals used to trail behind ecumenical churches and movements in issues of justice and race for fear of getting confused with social gospel agendas. We're over that now and we're much more involved.
Evangelicalism is still subject to the forces of conservatism which avoids a radical and prophetic voice concerning issues of justice, which includes race. The note I want to strike is respect. If we are truly serious about the theology that we are all made in God's image, then that has to be reflected in how we respond to race within the church.
We want to see more blacks and Asian people in leadership roles and more mixed congregations. However, the forces of racism within the church, and also the sociology of the community, militates against white folk being led by black folk. I can take you to places where a black leader arrives on the scene and maybe the church is 50-50 black and in two or three years it's 70 or 80 per cent black and 20 - 30 per cent white.
What is your view of the whole reconciliation movement and identificational repentance? The whole issue of repenting for your forefathers is a very contentious one. It would need to be more than white folks beating their breasts and asking forgiveness of black folks, for the past. What about Africans and Caribbeans addressing the same issue in terms of repentance for the past? The truth of the matter is that Africans sold Africans into slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries. That isn't necessarily politically correct, but it's a part of the history.
My primary concern is not to turn up as a black person at yet another church service and to have white folks telling me how sorry they are, to wash my feet and to retrace the last 200 years of history. I want to know what are we going to do about racism now and how are we going to construct a future which is one of mutual respect for all of us in 20 years time.
So, in terms of this issue of racial justice, you carry some hope? Yes. There are so many very successful black churches, very successful Asian churches, very successful Iranian churches etc. If it's true that 51% of Christians in London are from ethnic minorities, then all of us have to sit up and take note.
What is your response to the whole issue of asylum seekers, and how the church should view this? This operates on three levels. Firstly, the spiritual impact of immigration/ asylum has huge implications for the Christian church in terms of God bringing the mission field of the world to our doorstep. The church has an incredible opportunity to see how the gospel works in a multi-cultural context, and it's a challenge as well as an opportunity. I'm really encouraged to see the degree to which churches of all types have been at the forefront of expressing humanitarian response to issues of immigration and asylum seekers.
The second level is cultural. Britain really is a cultural melting pot. As I often say, the empire strikes back! When I sit on the No.W15 bus, which takes me three stops from Leytonstone station to my house, I see at least seven or eight different cultures. Those of us who are indigenous Anglo-Saxons will need to negotiate with the fear of a loss of a cultural climate which has changed for ever. This can be scary, particularly for people who have travelled very little and feel assaulted culturally. Not everybody who's hostile to immigration is necessarily incipiently racist. Some people are just afraid. That's a human trait.
The third level is the toughest - it's the political implications of asylum seekers and immigration. Once again I'm very proud of the fact that the church has been at the forefront of saying to government and politicians, "Please don't use this issue as a political football."
We have to make sure that politicians are being vigilant about people who are abusing the system. Secondly, we have to clean up the language around asylum-seekers. There are very explosive terms which I think have to be challenged because they are politically unhelpful in a transitional political and cultural situation. Thirdly, churches have to continue being on the front end of saying to politicians that there isn't a nation which hasn't benefited from economic migrants over many centuries.
What other political issues do you think the EA is able to speak into at the moment? One key question is that of faith groups and the right to employ people who are in sympathy with a Christian ethos. The EU employment directive, which becomes domestic law in the next 18 months or so, is a hugely important area of legislation. We have been privileged, behind the scenes, working with some of the most senior politicians from Brussels and in our parliament, trying to guide politicians to a form of legislation which will not discriminate against the Christian church or against any faith.
We were also the first group from anywhere to submit to the Home Office a seriously considered document on the issue of transsexuality that came out of our Commission of two years ago.
How do you see the changing face of evangelism and outreach? The thing which has been the singular most important shift in Christian witness has been the emphasis on lifestyle evangelism. It's been a very healthy development to say to 'ordinary Christians' that you in the workplace can make a massive difference.
Recently, David Hope, Archbishop of York, has decided to go back to being a parish priest because he is convinced that it's at the local level that Christian witness is going to have real effect.
Are we reaching the spiritually-conscious people today, in a time when spiritual awareness is growing? No, I don't think we are at all - we're not switched on to spirituality. Evangelicalism, because it is still rightly married to a commitment to Biblical orthodoxy and notions of absolute truth, is still, to a very large extent, the parent and guardian of modernity. It hasn't been sufficiently confident in recasting itself for a post modern spirituality. We haven't yet learned how to teach people of faith, with fixed theological points of references, how to live in a spiritual environment where lifestyle and personal testimony, are as powerful as objective truth as a meeting point. Rather than recoiling from this spirituality, I think we have to learn to interpret Christian faith within it.
You've spoken recently in The Times about the growing relationship between Evangelicals and Catholics. How do you see that developing? A number of things have brought us together. There has been a very serious theological discourse between Evangelicals and Catholics, looking at the things which historically divide, but also the potential points of theological convergence.
The second thing is that all Christians, including mainstream evangelicals, have imbibed the culture of tolerance that is around. Nobody wants to be an exclusive, bigoted, fundamental evangelical who won't talk to somebody else because of a big theological argument we had 400 years ago!
Thirdly, the charismatic movement has been willing to enjoy worship together with Catholics - usually stopping short of communion. This has brought down the walls of demarcation between Catholics and Protestants.
The fourth thing has been our recognition that the volume of challenges in our community - socially and politically - is massively beyond our ability to respond to on our own, and Catholics have a great track record of social engagement. Many evangelicals, as they've come out of the bunkers and sought to become salt and light in community, have found a natural ally with Catholics who have a very strong record of working for the common good.
Equally, the government is now, more than before, taking faith seriously. The collaboration between different Christian groups working ecumenically on the political agenda has also brought us closer together.
Now, having said all of that, there remain some very serious differences between Catholics and Evangelicals. The bulk of evangelicalism, would be very very loath to compromise the key Reformation issues - apostolic succession; the nature of the church; the nature of the Eucharist; our approach to salvation; the place of Mary; the balance of tradition and scripture; the role of the See of Rome in relation to the rest of the church.
There seems to be a genuine work of the Holy Spirit of reformation and transformation in many Catholic priests, bishops and individuals. This is all part of the pilgrimage I find myself on as a classical pentecostal, totally committed to historical evangelical distinctives.
Do you see the inevitable break up of the Church of England over the gay issue? Yes I do. The issue of human sexuality for the Christian church in general, and for Anglicans in particular, will become the most divisive issue in the next ten years. It will become increasingly so for contemporary evangelicals below the age of 35 who will have less theological scruples about the issue of human sexuality than people like myself. According to our last survey, the EA is pretty solidly behind the historic Judaeo-Christian view of human sexuality. It would be very interesting to take a survey of evangelical opinion on the issue ten years from now.
And how do you see the new Archbishop of Canterbury? Needless to say, this appointment has been very contentious. From the EA point of view we welcome his appointment. There was something refreshing about an appointment which is not an English bishop or archbishop. There was also something hopeful about a man who has significant intellectual capital, who has a tendency to speak his mind and express his convictions clearly, and is not afraid to challenge the institutions of government or church. He's someone who is obviously committed to trying to make sense of the gospel in the contemporary culture.
We have concerns about his liberal response to the issue of human sexuality, and whilst there is at present only one example of him having agreed to the ordination of a gay priest in what he described as 'extenuating, unreasonable pastoral circumstances', that concerns us. We're trying to ensure that we really understand his position on more orthodox issues of scripture and its authority, in order that we might be best positioned to respond to him.
Where have you found yourself in the whole debate about our view towards Islam? Fundamentalism and Islam are not the same thing. My chief concern is that in the aftermath of September 11th and the events of the last year in places like Bradford and Birmingham, the Christian community has a very serious obligation to respond to Islam and other faiths, in ways which do nothing to contribute to anti-Islamic sentiments within very volatile communities with high Islamic population.
Secondly, we have a responsibility to recognise that in a multi-cultural Britain all legitimate religious groups must have the freedom to exercise their religious convictions. This means Muslims as much as anybody else. To be strident anti-Islamic will do nothing to help positive Christian witness in the 21st century. In fact, politically, it could put us back significantly, because we could be seen as fundamentalists if we're not careful.
The real challenge for us is to make Jesus attractive, to make our faith credible - to make it competitive in the market place of choices, between secular humanism, which would get rid of all religions, and growing religions like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.
Now, having said all of that, I think we do have a responsibility to be willing to be politically incorrect in challenging fundamentalism wherever we meet it. Whether it's Christian, and people who blow up abortion clinics in the United States, or the kind of narrow evangelicalism, which has nothing to say about justice and tolerance.
Equally, we shouldn't be afraid of speaking against Islam in its fundamental guise. We ought to be challenging multi-faith dialogues here, to ensure that they're also crying out against religious intolerance and persecution in other parts of the world.
It will be interesting, as we come to the annual remembrance of the persecuted church, to invite multi-faith dialogues to join us in speaking out against the persecution of Christians in Indonesia, in Northern Nigeria, in Sudan and many other parts of the world. If they don't have the ability to say, "We agree with you and we're with you," I think we need to begin to ask some very serious questions of those groups.
We must resist Islamic fundamentalism. If Muslims can say to me that Osama bin Laden has nothing to do with Islam, then maybe I should begin to say the crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, because they can't have it both ways.
As you look to the church in the future, what are the key threats or challenges we face as evangelicals? We have to get over our nervousness about the gospel. We're going to have to be more confident in it, really believe it and behave like it.
I think the second threat is going to be how we handle tolerance. Tolerance has some very clear advantages and we can work within that ethos, but I don't know at what point we are likely to find tolerance becomes intolerance because of the specifics of the gospel.
We have to stack away in the back of our brain the possibility that Christians could be persecuted in the UK in the years ahead.
Thirdly, we're going to have to learn the language with which to talk to people about the good news. How do you start the conversation by the well? That's a serious challenge for us as Christians.
Is there anything else you wanted to share yourself? The real challenge for ourselves is: if Christianity works, let's prove it. That scene with Elijah on Mount Carmel, really fascinates me, because this is tangible proof of the power of the God of Israel. God is God, let's worship Him! How do we get people in our culture to say the Lord is God in such tangible ways? I think some of it's going to be as we demonstrate through acts of kindness and care that this is the God we serve, but also through the power of the Holy Spirit and the power of His word so that lives really get changed. I would love to see in five or ten years from now, a higher percentage of churches who could truly say, "if we close down, people would notice. If we went missing, this community would say 'Oh no, where have they gone?'"
And what of your future? Will you follow David Hope?! That's not impossible! People have often said, "After you leave the EA what would you do?" I feel I have a pastor's heart for the church. But there's also a developing, outward-looking prophetic voice, and I'm more and more passionate about speaking into society. When I stand in a church on a Sunday, I find it impossible not to evaluate my worship experience in relation to what's happening outside.
Have you got a final word for the church? We are the only ones who can demonstrate that rumours of our death are premature, and that the church is still God's best idea for changing society.
And finally, have you any word to us as the Jesus Fellowship? I admire the courage which Jesus Fellowship has displayed, over the last ten years, in diversifying beyond communal living - although that must remain the important core of what you are as a movement. The Christian church owes the Jesus Fellowship recognition for being a radical movement which treads where many evangelicals fear to tread.
As you continue to extend fellowship to the wider body of Christ and continue to make your contribution, you will be given tremendous wisdom to know how to retain your radical, cutting edge. I think the work which you do on the streets, is Christian work - it's the true gospel.
This article was taken from our Jesus Life magazine, and was first published in January 2003.
'Talking To..'
Joel Edwards, born in Kingston, Jamaica in 1951, arrived in Britain in 1960.
He remains an ordained Minister of the New Testament Church of God - one of the UK's largest Black denominations.
